Where will West Seattle's second dog park be? Your next chance to unleash an opinion

anonyme July 13, 2023 (4:34 pm)

Not Lincoln Park. The off-leash dog problem is already serious enough in what should be a lovely, natural area home to birds and other wildlife. This would only exacerbate the problem. ABSOLUTELY.NOT.

BrotherBoy July 13, 2023 (5:08 pm)

Seems like a great away to help control the situation.
WS Neighbor July 13, 2023 (5:31 pm)

Totally agree!
Erithan July 13, 2023 (8:12 pm)

Agreed, terrible place for it.
Tamsen spengler July 13, 2023 (9:30 pm)

Agree! Please not the park. I never wanted food trucks either. Save our natural resources and quiet places.
Shannon July 14, 2023 (11:44 am)

if there was a dog park near or part of Lincoln park, then there’d be a place for people to take their dogs, and let them run and play.
- Denise July 15, 2023 (8:02 am)
  
  Westcrest off-leash is only 10 minutes from Lincoln. It’s the 2nd largest Dog Park in Seattle, with over 30% of the total Off-leash acreage citywide. Dog owners can easily take their dogs there instead of ruining Lincoln Park for everyone else, not to mention wildlife. This site in Lincoln is a major nesting hot spot for owls, eagles, and hawks.
  - Maggie July 17, 2023 (7:46 am)
    
    Yep, and there’s lots of off-leash dogs at Westcrest outside the dog runs, I live nearby. Dog park does not equal no dogs off leash. I don’t think there should be a dog park at Lincoln either.

bolo July 13, 2023 (4:47 pm)

Will a new dog park (aka Off-Leash Area) reduce unwanted off-leash dog activity in the nearby vicinity? Or increase it?

That is the first question that comes to mind.

MrsT July 13, 2023 (4:54 pm)

West Seattle Stadium is the only reasonable answer. Lincoln Park spot is basically right where Shakespeare in the Park takes place.

BrotherBoy July 13, 2023 (5:07 pm)

I dunno – Seems easy enough to have Shakespeare in the Park in another location. 🤷
- Anne July 13, 2023 (6:20 pm)
  
  No. Easier to move the next off leash to WS Stadium.

Private July 13, 2023 (5:06 pm)

Hope the city privatized the park and have food trucks there too.$25 per hr to use the park

New Deal July 13, 2023 (9:11 pm)

I hope the kid’s parks get privatized too. 25 bucks to ride the slide I pay for.

Alki resident July 13, 2023 (5:58 pm)

I think we should talk about it for another ten years before a decision is made.

admyrl byrd July 14, 2023 (11:10 pm)

Are you a SCC council member?

Jeff July 13, 2023 (5:58 pm)

Strongly prefer stadium. It’s better geographic spread with Westcrest, and it is walking distance from a ton of high density residential.

Emma July 13, 2023 (7:46 pm)

That’s a great point about the stadium being walking distance from a high density residential area. It would help to serve a lot of individuals who may not have cars.
Dan July 13, 2023 (8:59 pm)

Right on the money. Better use of underutilized space and better accessibility too.
V July 14, 2023 (12:34 am)

My thoughts exactly. There isn’t a heck of a lot of green space in the area for dogs to enjoy or to just be dogs. It’ll be convenient and is near a bus stop
D-Mom July 16, 2023 (10:10 pm)

Exactly! And using that area doesn’t destroy the natural beauty of Lincoln Park. Also, there are many different users of the space at Lincoln Park that would not be able to use it if it became a dog park. We already have Westcrest on the south end. Take care of those in the junction and further north.

Rosemary July 13, 2023 (6:43 pm)

As a regular dog walker in Lincoln Park, that area has become a regular dog meet up area with lots of off leash activity. I like the idea that it be fenced, maintained and designated as a safe and legal off leash area. Maybe that will reduce dogs running on the beach terrorizing shore birds and fouling the beach.

Josh July 13, 2023 (7:35 pm)

Thoroughly agree. To those who complain of there being too many off leash dogs at Lincoln park, which I wholeheartedly agree with, having a defined area will most definitely contain this. Go to marymoor park or magnuson and observe for yourself, there are no off leash dogs outside of the off leash area.
Anne July 13, 2023 (8:45 pm)

No- off leash dogs should NOT be in Lincoln Park, The stadium is the best place- where they can run & not disturb any wildlife at all.
- Adam July 13, 2023 (10:36 pm)
  
  And you don’t think clearing out all that green space gets in the way of some wildlife that live there? I like Lincoln Park for this. It’s where I let my very well-controlled and behaved dog run off leash mostly anyway.
Odd son July 13, 2023 (10:12 pm)

Off leash area in Lincoln Park won’t help the problem. People will just hear off leash and Lincoln Park and will think the whole park is an off leash area. Kind of like how people hear pot is legal but ignore the specifics of the law.
John July 14, 2023 (12:58 am)

Lincoln Park is a beautiful and natural area with a great deal of diverse wildlife. It doesn’t need to further become a dog park. This space would also wipe out the area where Shakespeare in the park is performed
- Bob July 14, 2023 (11:09 am)
  
  Thank you, John. If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times – more public spaces should be zoned for poorly done ad hoc perfromances of Shakespeare in the year of our lord 2023
  - John July 14, 2023 (2:31 pm)
    
    You’ve just outed yourself as a hater of the arts and would rather have dogs ruining the park instead of seeing some culture
  - Scarlett July 16, 2023 (1:03 pm)
    
    I can appreciate a good bit of light-hearted satire, anno domini 2023.
Denise July 14, 2023 (7:06 am)

It doesn’t work like that. There’s no evidence adding legal off-leash solves illegal off-leash in the same park. It may even make the problem worse. Since Seattle first started building off-leash park, the claim that it will help is always made, but it never does. It gets worse every year, everywhere.

Gaslit July 13, 2023 (7:11 pm)

I thought all the conservation activists declared Lincoln Park a non-starter last time this came up. Sure seems like it’s a 50/50 shot at this point…

Niko July 14, 2023 (1:00 am)

As usual this is an example of the city just doing what they want regardless of what’s best for the environment.There will be more backlash if they try to go through with this I doubt it would ever get approved. Besides there’s a bunch of other projects in the park that the parks department needs to finish up before starting yet another one
Denise July 14, 2023 (7:10 am)

This is part of the bigger problem. The dog people keep haranguing the parks department. They’ve probably been working on this proposal for years, and they’ve got their supporters all lined up to fill out the survey, and the rest of us get only a few weeks to respond. If enough people don’t say a loud NO right now, this might actually happen. It would ruin the park, that’s’ for sure.
Kersti Elisabeth Muul July 14, 2023 (4:22 pm)

I’m here, and see comment down the thread.

WSCurmudgeon July 13, 2023 (8:37 pm)

Strongly support the stadium site. I’ve walked and played catch with a friend’s dog on that site, and it’s little used by other groups.

KBear July 13, 2023 (9:28 pm)

If there were any reason to believe that 1.) dog owners would be responsible and limit their off-leash activity to the designated area, and 2.) the city would actually enforce laws surrounding park usage, Lincoln Park would probably work just fine. Since neither of these is likely, I think WS Stadium is the better location. I say this as a dog owner who would love to see another off-leash park nearby.

Jay July 13, 2023 (10:02 pm)

Seeing as how Westcrest visitors staged a protest of throwing poo bags
on the ground because the trash can was moved ten feet to outside the
fence to make it easier for sanitation workers, I’m imagining the 850
foot walk to an OLA at Lincoln Park will be a mess of many uncontrolled off-leash dogs and a
considerable amount of trash. I’m a dog owner and love taking my dog off-leash, but at the same time seeing the usage and karen-heavy demographics at other OLAs I think that Lincoln Park OLA would be an unmitigated disaster. And this is on top of wildlife considerations that should make this location a non-starter.

my two cents July 14, 2023 (3:23 am)

Between the two locations, the Stadium would ‘preserve’ the Lincoln Park footprint as it is hard to ‘reset’ back to the original intent/purpose – if that is the goal. See Hiawatha as an example of an original concept that has evolved back and forth on uses. Absent of any other information, the Stadium site seems to be either underutilized at all. Parking during certain times will be a problem for both proposals.

Sf July 14, 2023 (3:49 am)

Seems like Lincoln park would be better. As it would help control the odd leash dog owners who already use the area. At magnuson park most people don’t take their dogs off their leash until they get into the dog park. Even if you have it at the stadium it won’t deter people from doing it at Lincoln park, since it’s already a habit so why not put it where people are already doing it

Jeepney July 14, 2023 (7:19 am)

Can’t we have off leash dog parks in both locations?

Admyrl Byrd July 14, 2023 (11:15 pm)

That was what I was thinking. Appears enough interest to alleviate pent up demand at Lincoln park, but that will do little for the Junction-north people who tend to go to Hamilton or Alki to let dogs run. Since they took Hamilton off the list (not sure why) the Stadium site is going to be needed badly; it would serve more “new users” than Lincoln which is already closer to Westcrest.

Happy Turtle July 14, 2023 (7:23 am)

Jay the protest was not moving the trash dumpster outside the gate where people park. It was moving the dumpster that was well inside the park out. When people put black trash cans there they were removed. There was no where to put poo bags when you were in the park. Part of the redesign should have included access for the sanitation workers. Pretty basic. The reality of the Westcrest “remodeled” dog park is that is was not thought out or designed for dogs or their owners. They actually ruined the park. ROCKS, sharp ROCKS, uneven ROCKS and hot rocks in the summer. They fields that used to be busy all of the time are empty because walking/running there is uncomfortable/unsafe for all. The part of the part that is being overused is by the “forest” because it is the most terrain friendly part of the park for people and dogs alike. After one walk around the loop my dog is ready to leave because his paws are sore. Lets hope wherever they build the new dog park it will actually be designed with the dogs and their owner in mind. I agree it should be by the stadium.

Jay July 14, 2023 (8:00 pm)

Not an excuse. Part of the responsibility of owning a dog is carrying poo bags. If you can’t handle that, I don’t know what to say. Carrying them for a bit until you leave is not an undue burden, it’s a basic responsibility.

Christine July 14, 2023 (7:51 am)

Please express your opinion in the survey. That is how the decision will be made. I doubt if they will read Blog comments. I agree with many of you. No to the Lincoln Park location and Yes the other one.

Outside the box July 14, 2023 (8:39 am)

Why not do both? There’s clearly demand for it.

ex-pat July 14, 2023 (9:21 am)

Excellent point. West Seattle has very, very few places for dogs to get sufficient exercise, and we can’t count on people to make the right choice and only own dogs who are happier with less exercise (some smaller breeds, adopting older dogs, etc.)–the next best thing is to provide places for the dogs to romp–places safe(r) for both the dogs and other people and the enivornment. That means designated off-leash spots such as dog parks. To echo your point–why not do both, there is SO much demand for these places.
- Denise July 15, 2023 (8:13 am)
  
  There is more demand for non-dog space from wildlife and nature and people. Seals kept off the beach because of illegal dogs running there, birds scared off their nests, plants trampled. Not to mention people who are scared of dogs because of past attacks or trauma. Leave Lincoln alone, go to Westcrest instead. It’s a huge space that the city (As in taxpayers) provided for dogs. It’s all for dogs, that’s pretty generous, I’d say.

David July 14, 2023 (11:10 am)

There are two hilly fields along sylvan, just grass. Likely owned by the cementary there. Could purchase them and use those plots as dogparks without affecting any current parks.

Dan July 14, 2023 (1:39 pm)

Lincoln Park dog park would just be another giveaway to car owners and single-family homeowners (who generally have some yard for their dog to run around in anyways). Renters who live in dense areas without yards are underserved in this respect.

wsEthicist July 14, 2023 (3:46 pm)

How about neither — it is unethical to enslave a canine as a personal accessory, and shouldn’t be encouraged by adding more infrastructure for it. Pet ownership also unnecessarily increases pollution.

ex-pat July 14, 2023 (7:32 pm)

a) Given how many people already own (enslave?) dogs, I’m not sure having off-leash dog parks increases the number of dog owners. Maybe you have stats that show otherwise?

b) Couldn’t all your arguments be extended to kids?
admyrl byrd July 14, 2023 (11:20 pm)

I’ll bet you’re fun at parties too. One of life’s biggest joys is the bond between a human and a dog. God (or whatever supreme deity or accidental chemical activity you ascribe to) created this for a reason. It is only fair that we provide some reward back to the dogs that give us so much joy. It’s a fair tradeoff for tolerating zoning changes and developer-friendly dense buildings without mass transit in place. If you’re really passionate about unnecessary pollution, please read the recent NYT article on EVs vs hybrids.
- Not at Lincoln July 15, 2023 (8:31 am)
  
  I bet they are very fun at parties. It’s a valid point they raise, especially since domestic dogs have spent 99% of their existence as a species as work animals, bred for very specific human needs. It’s only recently they’ve been expect to fulfill human emotional needs as well. And frankly, many of them are baffled by their new role as Fur Babies, that’s obvious by the number of anxious dogs needing meds. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that city life is hard on these animals, expected to behave and always be there to provide comfort, but not allowed to experience the life they are naturally suited for. Humans created this problem, and it’s up to dog owners to respect that and decide BEFORE they bring a dog into their home if they can truly provide it a good life. This is your responsibility, not society’s. Do not expect the rest of us to help support your dog with OLAs in places as precious as Lincoln Park.

Kersti Elisabeth Muul July 14, 2023 (4:02 pm)

Chiming in again here with experience, science based comments and data. PLEASE fill out the survey. I have created a group to help folks articulate what they need to say regarding why this won’t/can’t happen at Lincoln. I also wrote bullets for Seattle Audubon (Birds Connect) and we made an action alert, link is below 👇Here are my bullets:Nesting hot spot for many raptors; barred and screech owls, Cooper’s, ravens, and eagles just down the wayHunting and occupancy area for barred, great horned and screech owls, peregrines, Cooper’s, Eagles, merlins, ravensFledgling dispersal area for raptors (See attached photo of fledgling and adult just above the proposed area from 7-1-23, sent to me from Elspeth Martin)Long grass around groves are nesting areas for songbirds (especially ground nesters like Juncos; I heard many nestlings and fledglings yesterday 06-19-23)Drainage to sound (west), and drainage to ONLY remaining ephemeral creek that runs N/S and drains directly into sound (dog waste will go directly into this) In the hot months this is THE ONLY source of water in the park for wildlife. This point I cannot stress enough. Birds often bathe and drink here. Not only is it a pollution hazard, it is a disruption to the needs of them by proximity. compaction, digging and other disruptions could reroute the water as well. This area has already been recommended for drainage improvements by the Parks Dept. [we need to figure out exactly where drainage and groundwater intersect] Lincoln hosts a ton of migratory birdsNBP survey GPS survey square #4 is literally in the proposed spotUnavoidable (abuts bluff trail)Grassy picnic area with beech grove, redwood and evergreen groves on either sidesPopular tourist and photo destination in fall (the Kentucky yellow leaf trees are quite a spectacle)Parking is already an issue, imagine 50 more cars trying to find a place to park in the lots and surrounding neighborhood. I was at the park Friday and there were two empty stalls in upper lotProximity to play areas is hazardous (soccer and baseball fields, playgrounds)Fauntleroy ferry traffic is an issue, and is being re-designed with limited parking in future, this will put pressure on surrounding neighborhoods. Folks crossing the street (fauntleroy) will add increased burden to traffic as the crosswalk light changes red. For people who live here and commute along Fauntleroy this is already horrible as it isEquity issue; the stadium option is closer to Delridge, White center, South Park and Georgetown. It’s already a vacant lot, easy to access and walkable from an equity access standpointLincoln park is a very large (one of the last remaining) green spaces that provides home to many species of wildlife. This would be an utter disruption to the very purpose of the parkThe meadow is used in the summer for picnics, naps, lots of hammocks are hung in the beech treesWhataboutism; this WILL NOT help the off-leash issue we already have here. These folks aren’t dog park types and that’s not why they walk off-leash. This is a lack of enforcement issue, and should not be shrouded by giving law-breakers more ‘options’ WestCrest the existing OLA is 8.4 acres and is the second largest in the city, and the largest in West Seattle. people don’t use westcrest due to high car prowl in parking lots, not because there is no roomMy climate watch squares are next to westcrest OLA, it is loud and smelly, and people often have their dogs off-leash before they even enter the permitted areas. They often let them out of the gate after and they runamoc on the wooded trails. OLAs are a culture that is not conducive to greenspace or wildlife success Off leash dogs traumatize and trigger on leash dogsoff leash dogs harass wildlife and also cause dispersal of prey items https://mailchi.mp/birdsconnectsea/ola-action-july-2023?e=039c55c20dKersti E. Muul360-317-4646Urban Conservation & Wildlife Specialist – Response and RescueWildlife Field Biologist IV Marbled murrelet forest certifiedNeighborhood Bird Project Site Leader, Climate Watch coordinator

WestSeattleBadTakes July 14, 2023 (4:49 pm)

Equity = put the dog park where the poor people live, not where the rich people live. Where else will they picnic in the summer?

Equity issue; the stadium option is closer to Delridge, White center, South Park and Georgetown. It’s already a vacant lot, easy to access and walkable from an equity access standpointLincoln park is a very large (one of the last remaining) green spaces that provides home to many species of wildlife. This would be an utter disruption to the very purpose of the parkThe meadow is used in the summer for picnics, naps, lots of hammocks are hung in the beech tree
- Jay July 14, 2023 (8:04 pm)
  
  I can’t disagree that you’ve made a bad take. Rich people have yards, poor people do not. It’s more equitable to put OLAs near pooer neighborhoods. The area around Lincoln Park is zoned single family with yards. Delridge has more multifamily units with no yards. Delridge dogs have a higher need for a public space to exercise.
  - WestSeattleBadTakes July 15, 2023 (8:42 am)
    
    Delridge dogs have a higher need for a public space to exercise.
    
    And the rich have a higher need for safe, quiet green space near their homes with yards.
- Not at Lincoln July 15, 2023 (8:34 am)
  
  Lincoln is used by people from all walks of life to find peaceful places to be in nature. A dog park there would ruin the park for most people.
anonyme July 14, 2023 (5:52 pm)

Kersti, you’ve made a thorough and accurate argument. This may be premature, but I’m all in should the need for a formal opposition develop.
- Not at Lincoln July 15, 2023 (8:36 am)
  
  Spread the word and encourage people to fill out the survey!
CrzyCatLdy July 18, 2023 (4:43 pm)

Kersti Elisabeth Muul-

Thank you so much for articulating why there should not be a dog park in Lincoln Park. I will continue to support your efforts in preventing this disaster from happening. My survey is completed.

Al King July 14, 2023 (4:58 pm)

People keep forgetting Alki Beach is an off-leash dog park. Clearly sanctioned by the city as there’s ZERO enforcement.

Admyrl Byrd July 14, 2023 (11:21 pm)

Which is partly why I wonder why Hamilton park was dismissed…I think that would’ve alleviated at least some of the Alki usage.

Reed July 15, 2023 (9:07 am)

People need to be more thoughtful when choosing a dog breed. If you have to run a high energy breed off-leash, rather than running or walking it long distance with it yourself on a leash, maybe reconsider your choice of dogs.

Gaslit July 16, 2023 (11:42 am)

It’s funny…I have the same feeling about choosing the type of people to associate with. Never met one dog that I couldn’t get along with. People who tell others how to live their lives and what types of things to “consider”…that’s another matter.
- anonyme July 18, 2023 (12:36 pm)
  
  Actually, Reed makes an excellent point. It’s not just about people’s widdle feelings, it’s about what is good for the dogs, and good for the environment. People that make selfish and uninformed decisions about dog ownership do not suffer the consequences of those bad decisions. Everyone else does – especially the poor dogs. In addition to more consideration being given to the breed of dog, I would add that many people do not have the right living situation to provide a good home for a dog and should just not have one. The burden is not on the rest of society to provide for your dog. So many people are eager to exercise their rights, completely ignoring the responsibilities that go with them.

Scarlett July 15, 2023 (9:21 am)

I won’t weigh in on the dog park location, but to dog owners (and I am one): LEASH your dogs! I let my guard down and suffered a dog bite six months and still have a prolematic scar on my leg. I’m sure you all love your mutt but we can’t read your mind about how well trained your dog is, and we certainly can’t read your dog’s mind. Alleviate the anxiety people have by leashing your lovable mutt and allowing plenty of space around other people. This shouldn’t require any complex thinking – it’s just the right thing to do.

WS Wildlife Watch July 18, 2023 (11:57 am)

An excellent and informed response by Kersti. Informed is the key word here. The meadow is the ONLY meadow- both in Lincoln Park and for miles around. For those who do not already know – meadows are wildly important places for wildlife – especially raptors of which you see many photographed in Lincoln Park here on the Blog (aren’t we lucky?). Except we need to TAKE CARE of them and the entire food chain they represent and of which we are a part of, btw. They collapse – we collapse. It’s that simple. I’m flabberghasted that the City would even consider as beautiful and significant conservation area as the meadow. It supports ALL of the bird and animal species that try to eek out a living in LP and is critical habitat for many. As Kersti mentioned, the fact that it has not monitored and enforced already has been a huge problem for a long time. That, includes us, btw – that area supports a variety of non-dog, human activities including Shakespeare in the Park – otherwise known as Shakespeare in the Poo – given how often the OLD-ers do not pick it up. C’mon – we all know wherever there is an off leash park, the area gets RUINED – even for the dogs. There are at least a million of dogs and 2 million people in KC. It ain’t sustainable and there are no easy answers…. But for God’s sake, leave what little habitat is left for wildlife that dearly needs it and is already under severe stress from (all-human-made btw) habitat loss, tree obliteration, climate change, paving & polluting all of Western WA. And for those of us with no back yards, we too need a quiet place to sit in the sun and admire the fabulous beauty that LP offers us that’s not the busy beach or playground areas. Love dogs, but right now, we have to take a back seat to OL certain dogs and their certain super-hostile owners. ‘Nuf said on that. I vote for not only no off-leash area there , but going back the other direction and restoring it back to everyone – human and non-human alike. I will enthusiastically support any formal opposition that can be mustered to protect this meadow treasure inside the treasure that is Lincoln Park.

sonofsuzannepeters July 18, 2023 (2:32 pm)

Woah, these replies are full of a lot of people who seem to know a lot about every inch of Lincoln Park. Disappointing to see so many who feel the need to police the use of a public park and are inflexible to the changes that occur within a rapidly growing city, like Seattle! I guess my main question is whether those who are worried about disturbed wildlife in Lincoln Park are showing the same concern for the disturbed wildlife by the stadium? There are a lot of trees in that area as well, so you are looking a bit selective in your wildlife outrage. Will you all be out there re-homing the wildlife from WS Stadium over to Lincoln Park, if that option is chosen? And what about the people who walk around Lincoln Park hand feeding the squirrels and crows; are you stopping them when you see them? While I fully agree that the Stadium option serves the denser and more apartment residing population of West Seattle, the way some of you people speak about dogs and dog owners is unreal. Lincoln Park is a public park with acres of under used space that a lot of you seem to feel like you own! It makes me want to tell everyone I know to vote for the Lincoln Park option, just to spite you all.